The Lattice (Official 3DHEALS Podcast)
Welcome to the Lattice podcast, the official podcast for 3DHEALS. This is where you will find fun but in-depth conversations (by founder Jenny Chen) with technological game-changers, creative minds, entrepreneurs, rule-breakers, and more. The conversations focus on using 3D technologies, like 3D printing and bioprinting, AR/VR, and in silico simulation, to reinvent healthcare and life sciences. This podcast will include AMA (Ask Me Anything) sessions, interviews, select past virtual event recordings, and other direct engagements with our Tribe.
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The Lattice (Official 3DHEALS Podcast)
Episode #95 | Microfluidics & Additive Innovation with Paul Marshall
Microfluidics has long promised to reshape diagnostics, drug discovery, and laboratory science. Microfluidics is about manipulating how tiny amounts of liquid move through channels no wider than a human hair; a "lab on a chip" diagnostic. Now imagine being able to 3D print those channels instead of painstakingly etching them. Paul Marshall, CEO of Rapid Fluidics, is working to improve the norm by applying additive manufacturing to the design and production of microfluidic systems.
In this episode, Jenny Chen speaks with Marshall about how 3D printing enables fluidic devices with architectures that cannot be produced through conventional techniques. Traditional fabrication locks researchers into rigid patterns and flat geometries. Paul's work extends beyond basic microfluidics.
His team creates remarkably detailed anatomical models by converting medical imaging data into functional vascular systems that mimic human biology. These models provide alternatives to animal testing and training platforms for medical procedures. They've also worked on embedding electronics directly into microfluidic devices, creating "smart" systems that can measure biological changes in real-time. Their work clearly demonstrates the potential of infusing engineering precision with scientific imagination.
Paul Marshall reflects on the growth of his career as a founder by detailing the progression from experimental prototypes to a growing enterprise serving research communities. Marshall launched this venture at the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic, a seemingly unpromising time to start a business. However, as diagnostic companies pivoted to develop coronavirus tests, the demand for rapid prototyping exploded. Now five years later, Rapid Fluidics serves global healthcare giants from their base in Newcastle, England, while planning expansion to the United States.
This conversation offers a perspective on microfluidics that goes beyond the traditional. If you’ve ever wondered how big breakthroughs emerge from small scales, this episode makes the case that the tiniest channels can carry some of the most exciting ideas.
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About Pitch3D
Hello there. Today we're joined by Paul Marshall, ceo of RapidFluidics. You may have noticed his eye-catching social media posts of 3D-printed microfluidics work that has made him a recognized leader in the field. Paul's journey began in mechanical engineering before moving into biotech about 10 years ago. Drawing on his experiences in additive manufacturing, he went on to co-found RapidFootix in 2020, in the middle of a pandemic, to deliver rapid prototyping of microfootix devices, mainly for life science sector. In this episode, we'll delve into his career path, explore how 3D printing is transforming microfootix and discover why the most exciting developments are yet to come. Enjoy Please listen to the disclaimer at the end of this podcast. Hello Hi. Thank you for joining the pod, paul.
Speaker 2:Not at all Good. Happy to be here.
Speaker 1:I think you're definitely famous in the world of 3D printed microfilterics. For sure, I see your amazing posts almost on a daily basis, always fascinated with your works. They're very visually pleasing. The reason why I'm hosting this podcast with you is we want to deep deeper into your journey, your work and what those beautiful photographs are about sure thanks for saying um, yeah, we do make a point of showing off the shiny stuff.
Speaker 2:Um, we do more conventional microfluidics as well, but certainly, you know, we showcase the benefits of using additive manufacturing, the features that we can make, the geometry we can make, and we've had a great time over this summer really boosting our social media campaigns, really pushing the boat out a little bit more, and the great thing is there's a lot more to come, so you'll just have to keep watching.
Speaker 1:Well, I have to say, those campaigns are definitely working for me. I am your super fan and that's why we're having this conversation today. But just for the audience who are still unfamiliar with the field of microfluids and your work, would you like to just introduce to us what your company is about and your founder journey briefly?
Speaker 2:journey briefly Sure. So five minute elevator pitch. I am a mechanical engineer. I've been working for 25 years now, but we don't like to talk about it and for the last 10, 11 years or so I've been involved in the life science sector. Through my career I managed to get into life science.
Speaker 2:Let's say 11, 12 years ago I was given the opportunity to work for a startup biotech company here in Newcastle-upon-Tyne, north East England, developing a point of care molecular diagnostic system. So a shiny, white or in this case black box with a disposable microfluidic cartridge used for diagnosing whatever assay was going to be required. So biological sample goes in, put the cartridge in the box, box runs its magic and it tells you what's present in that sample and that's what kind of that's. That's the catalyst for where I am now in the way we developed that product and the opportunities that arose from that. So for those that don't know, microfluidics is exactly as it sounds like it's manipulation of small amounts of fluids. So a few microliters sample, maybe smaller, looking at analyzing DNA, single cell analysis, anything along those lines. And then we're particularly focused in the automation of the lab bench processes. So taking a process on a lab bench, converting it into something that can be run automatically. So the lab on a chip is the phrase that gets used most frequently.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you founded your company in the pandemic, at the beginning of the pandemic or after the pandemic?
Speaker 2:It was just as it kicked off, which sounds like a really silly time to start a company. So from the previous um job, I would basically come up with this process through a partnership with newcastle university in a phd to develop 3d printing for microfluidics. Um, and that worked. We had this process. We could produce a prototype microfluidic chip in a matter of hours, if that suitable for pcr amplification. Subsequently, when I saw opportunities elsewhere. So there was a demand for rapid prototypes of microfluidics. That's what gave us the incentive to start a business. So a bit of market research realized the market was there. No one else was providing this kind of service. So bought a 3D printer, made a few parts, sold a few parts and that's how it kind of kicked off. But yeah, this was right at the beginning of 2020. This was the beginning of the pandemic.
Speaker 1:Was this in March right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's when we had our first. The business was registered in july, but we've been operating for a few months before then. Um, so made for an interesting situation, but what we found was the. The market for diagnostic systems understandably, went through the roof. Everybody who was developing a diagnostic system was pivoted and went straight onto the COVID assay. So we certainly had some projects. We didn't have loads, but we had some. That enabled us to get going, enabled the world's approach to diagnostics changed. So for the following 18 months, we just saw more and more inquiries coming in for not just COVID but wider range as well.
Speaker 2:What happened then, though? Post pandemic, you know, the world was cured. Nobody cares about diagnostics anymore. But all these little startups that were running on investor funding. The investment dried up. The attitude seemed to be that lateral flow testing was good enough. You don't need to have the full lab on a chip diagnostic. So they were struggling, so the money went elsewhere, and that was when we expanded our services and found other markets to get into with other features benefiting from using additive manufacturing that we'll go into shortly.
Speaker 1:So when you started the company, was your main focus on how to use 3D printing to make these rapid prototyping, or was it a range of selections?
Speaker 2:It was definitely focusing on 3D printing. That's the USP, that's what the PhD kind of formed and created. That idea and that ability to produce parts quickly became a real. There's a real game changer. There was one of the early clients we dealt with, um, and I actually posted on linkedin yesterday, um, where wait, I'll find that link.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, they say so. We, we were describing a process, we had this sketch, or we we had this process on a lab bench. We sketched on a whiteboard what was needed. So it was take a sample, mix it with a reagent, incubate it, mix it with another reagent, incubate it, mix it with another reagent, incubate it some more, mix it with another reagent and incubate it some more. So it's a five-step process. We sketched out the schematic on a whiteboard in the afternoon, turned that into a 3D CAD model. It's 3D CAD, but it's fairly simple because it's actually everything drawing really. So it's not too hard to model um, and that enables us to generate the 3d model, generate the stl file, 3d print it. It's on the lab bench the next day.
Speaker 2:And that's where you think, hang on, this is amazing to get these parts made any other way, through cmc machining or, you know, embossing, anything like that. You're looking at weeks to make them. I think we actually put it out to tender. We couldn't get anyone less than six weeks and we made it next day. And that's the stage.
Speaker 2:You think, well, if my prototype I can get next day and then I can do the next one iteration the next day and the next iteration the next day. That's three days, whereas it would have been 18 weeks. And if you're trying to develop a process that's trying to prevent half the population of the world being wiped out by the super virus, what are you going to do? You know, you realize the benefits of getting this product to market quickly. It's not financial, it's healthcare, and that's where we kind of had this real eye-opener moment. You think, hang on, this is real, this is so useful, we've got to take it further and that's enabled us to kind of keep going and we pride ourselves on the rapid response that we can provide a service to our customers.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, these trips that you produced are beautiful, fascinating. However, you know, I think it's not as easy as it looks, so I think you made it look too easy. So I want to hear just unpack some concepts, for we have a variety of audiences. Some are in college still and some are definitely in the phd level. But you know, if you were going to explain the concept of microfluidic fundamentally, what are the principles behind it? What makes it so challenging and interesting? Can you say a few words on that?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, so obviously you're down to. You know you're at the microfluidic level. You're dealing with microliters of liquid. So you've the best way to picture it from anyone who hasn't seen one of these parts is imagine a pcb printed circuit board, but instead of the copper tracks you've got channels for liquid to go through. That's the complexity we're talking about here. Those channels will vary from literally single figure microns in a silicon chip up to hundreds of microns, maybe millimeters.
Speaker 2:With the technology we're using we can't get down to that single figure micron and there are processes out there that will do that. So our sweet spot is around us all down to a couple of hundred, maybe a hundred microns. We can go smaller, we have gone smaller, smaller. It's pretty hard but we can get there. So you're dealing with these features that are, you know, the size of a human hair, um, and these are these channels, and we we're printing in resin. So there have been um attempts at using filament printing for making microfluidics. Um, the dollar might even produce a coc extrusion um system specifically for coc microfluidics. Dolomite even produced a COC extrusion system specifically for COC microfluidic chips, but the resolution was such that you were down to millimeter challenges, millifluidics, macrofluidics, whatever you want to call it so much bigger yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, so that never really worked. It was nice, really good-looking parts, and anyone within the field knows that coc is the be all and end all really of material. It's lovely, expensive and hard to process, but you know, the end results are great. But it's just not suitable for 3d printing, so we're using um, methacrylate based resins for printing, and so you can imagine printing a channel that is literally, you know side of a human hair, a couple hundred microns wide, a couple hundred microns deep. How do you stop the resin blocking that channel?
Speaker 2:right and that is the major challenge. That's what the basis of the phd was to find out a process to do that. Um, as printers have got better, you're getting much better control. You can get that resolution and that you need. But the great thing with 3d printing is obviously you can, and you can make an open channel. How do you put a lid on it? So that's another process that 3d printing gets around. There's no bonding. So with traditional methods of making microfluidics, whether embossing or cnc, you know you create the channel and then you put a lid on, you somehow join a flat surface on top to enclose that channel. We don't need to do that because we're 3D printing it. Great, that's one solution. But the challenge is how do you get the excess resin out of the channel? That's the hard bit. That's the question we get asked. How do you do it? How do you make sure it's clear? Because it's almost too accessible, and this is something we come up with with prospective clients. They've bought a 3d printer.
Speaker 2:You can buy one for, you know, a few hundred dollars on amazon and you know, and in theory the resolution is 25 microns and xy kind of thing it's. It's totally achievable as, as the projector resolutions have got better and better, based on phone technology, you really in theory can get down to that resolution. So people will try and it doesn't work. And that either puts them right off and they say 3d printing is no good, we don't like it, it doesn't work, um, or they realize that they just need to get the experts, and that's what our process is enable us to do. We've got methods where we use the sacrificial material to stop the resin coming in.
Speaker 2:The other thing is we've just learned how to do it. You know, by investing in higher quality equipment, especially with the dlp printers and and I'm saying we, I don't do this, I've got a wonderful team who know how to do it, I stay well out of it. But by investing in the equipment and the materials and just learning the processes, along with techniques for post-processing, ultimately we can make this happen. So it is really hard, but we know how to do it. And it sounds quite smug, but we are, the world leaders are doing this. There's there's few people who can do what we can do. Um, the alternative is you buy yourself a half a million dollar printer and then you can do it. But who wants to be spending half a million dollars on on some equipment?
Speaker 1:I doubt having a million dollar equipment can actually get you have a million dollar return immediately because there are a lot of learning involved yeah, that's that.
Speaker 2:That's my thought. That's why we haven't gone down that route. Um, you know there are academic institutions that have these and that's great and you can get down to that really fine resolution, but it's not. That's not the market that we're trying to to fulfill. We're trying to find people who are they want to get their product to market. A lot of our customers will have an end goal of injection molding. You know they want to. You know 2 million, 10 million parts a year for a consumable and that consumable needs to cost you know a couple of dollars, um, that's the target price.
Speaker 2:So they've got to scale up to injection molding and that brings in other challenges. Um, but they've got. You know, to tool up for injection molding traditionally costs you tens of thousands of dollars, so you've got to know where you are to get there in the first place. And again, if you can avoid the really small features, it's more likely that you can actually mold the thing in the first place. Um, so there's a, as I say, there's a sweet spot that we, that we fit in with our techniques. But then then there are lots of other advantages to additive. So one of my big things that I try and promote is do you need to go to injection molding? You know if, actually, within the scope of what you're doing, maybe additive is the way forward and there's some fantastic advantages on using additive manufacturing for batch and large scale production and outside of the medical technology world.
Speaker 2:I think additive is finding these techniques for automating large-scale production, so it's really interesting seeing where that's going.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let's just dial back a little bit in terms of how hard actually making these things are. There are a lot of signs behind how fluid behaves on a micro scale level tiny, tiny. I mean. Do you have to hire a bunch of PhDs to figure out exactly what you're making actually is going to deliver what they're going to deliver?
Speaker 2:If we are designing it, then, yes, it depends. So we work with clients in different levels. With some of our customers, if they've designed it, we're like a generic prototyping shop almost. They give us a step file, we'll come up with the price, make the part and that's fine. And that's how we operate. So they might already have their concept, they might have tried prototyping one way or another, they might even be towards the injection molding side and they just need a bit of support with converting it to the animation. But then, yes, there are those customers who come to us and they have a process. They need support designing the whole package. Now, if it's fairly simple, we can probably copy and paste an existing design, make it a little bit bigger, a little smaller, change things around. But if you need to get into the fundamentals of you know say, you're trying to sort cells from a sample- um you want to use a spiral for cell sorting, so you right
Speaker 2:a liquid through a spiral centrifugal force and I forget the name of the other forces involved but that causes cells of different size to go out of that spiral out different points, and so that's the level where you need that fundamental knowledge, that phd level knowledge of um, of microfluidics. So we have a network of consultants that we bring in when we need to to assist on the design side of things. So we'll you know we're not just a prototyping shop, we'll help our customers, at whatever level they're at, to solve their problems. I view it very much as we're an engineering consultant, we're a solution provider, but we happen to specialize in microfluidics.
Speaker 1:You guys have some kind of preparatory method. Now I just want to understand. I remember that you are actually quite open to a variety of tools, a variety of printers. You're open to purchasing outside tools. What part of it do you actually have IP on? That's in-house trade secret. Obviously don't share the trade secret with us, but just kind of curious.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I am open about this. We don't have a patent on the process. We don't have ip on the process. It came from a phd which, if you dig into it, you can download the thesis and read it and yeah, go and buy yourself a sheet printer, knock yourself out trying to copy us.
Speaker 2:That's fine. What we've got is the, it's the know-how of how everything mixes together. So, yes, you can work, you, you can read up about the sacrificial material process, right, knowing what that material is, how to apply it, how to remove it. You might get there. You probably, probably will. But you know it might take you three or four years effectively a phd length of time to work out how to do it. So we've got our four-year phd. Then we've been operating for five years. Since then, um, we've gained a lot of knowledge in-house. So that's, that's our, you know, that's our USP, that ability to process it. But what we found is, as I say, as we've invested in the, in other equipment, we don't always need to use that process. So it's only suitable for certain geometry, some stuff. Just it's not suitable for some stuff. We just don't need to use that process so it's only suitable for certain geometry, some stuff just it's not suitable for some stuff.
Speaker 2:We just don't need to use that, which makes it makes it easier in a way, because it's quite labor intensive. We've looked at automating it. We've developed a that, the hardware. So we have developed a bespoke printer that allows us to pull everything together in one go and we proved that that works. But then there wasn't really the return on investment to scale it up. We found it's just easier to keep going, you know, with the, with the higher quality printers, the better printers, and then use this as a backup when we need to and for the particular geometry that applies to yeah, I agree.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think knowing how to use the technologies that you already have is equally important, if not more important than having IP. I know people who have 100 IPs and not a single company or application. So now let's go to some of the fun projects you have done. You mentioned that you started a company during the pandemic. Why don't we start there? What's your most interesting projects during that period of time?
Speaker 2:So the very first project was, by coincidence, almost as anyone who starts a company, you've got to commit to it, you've got to know what to do. Most people will have a backup plan. So when the three of us founded the company so I founded the company with another engineer and also the guy who did the PhD the three of us got the company. So I founded the company with another engineer and also the guy who did the PhD the three of us got things going, but we all had other things going on. Just to you know, you've got to put food on the table at the end of the day. So the position I had I was working on a contract at that point with a local business who were developing a system. It was detection of airborne pathogens. So it's actually linked in with a US defense project. Obviously, if you've got a system for detecting airborne pathogens just when a virus that is airborne kind of takes over half the world, there's a market there. So that really boosted things forward. So I was helping them with the microfluidic system and one of the first conversations I had was you know, I'm going to design your microfluidics for you. How are we going to make this? And they said we don't know what do you suggest. By coincidence, I've just set up a company that can do this.
Speaker 2:So we had this first customer lined up from day one and that's always been important to me on the business growth. Journey, the revenue is everything to me. I didn't want to be dependent on investment or grants. You know, journey the revenue is everything to me. I didn't want to be dependent on investment or grants. You know we have taken some, but not masses. Um, it's always been focused on on the customer.
Speaker 2:So we started off working with this one particular customer, um, who we continue to work with. You know it comes and goes, but they're they're local firms. It's really nice to work with them, um, and we've we helped to take their, their projects quite a long way along away, really, and that ability to produce the components next day we even did same day because they're local, literally. There's one opportunity where an email came in at nine in the morning can we have two of these and three of these please? And by four in the afternoon they're on the lab bench allowing them their research and it's just yeah, those moments like that are just fantastic.
Speaker 2:So that allowed us to really kick things off and give us the confidence to take things further forward. It allowed us to build up a case study where we got a large grant from Innovate UK that allowed us to develop materials and, as I mentioned earlier about developing the hardware, and that gave us effectively an 18 month runway, whilst covering the um, the rd side, to continue to grow the business on the side, and that's just, you know. Since then, we've just grown and grown um and picked up a variety of different projects. Um, I think so, paul um the uh for the airborne project.
Speaker 1:Just curious. I don't know if you can share this is how do you use a microfluidics to detect airborne pathogens?
Speaker 2:I can't go into the details. Obviously.
Speaker 1:Even if I understood, I tried guys.
Speaker 2:The basic concept is a system draws gallons of air in, condenses it down to liquid and then takes that liquid and then runs it through a microfluidic system to detect what was in the air sample originally.
Speaker 1:So as they it was a defense-related project initially, but then there's application. I mean, honestly, I am curious how much, how many pathogens are around me, because I still work in a hospital sometimes. I don't think I've seen anything remotely like that so far.
Speaker 2:No, there's applications. It's more of a defense-based system, right right, as far as I know, with the results of live sampling. It's astonishing how much is in the air and quite scary. But equally, humans are resilient. If it's in the air anyway, you're probably fine, but yeah, interesting.
Speaker 1:That definitely piqued my interest. I will do some research after this call. All right and okay. So you did a bunch of other really interesting and fascinating projects. Love to just name a few. I think during our webinar recently you talked about the anatomical models, which got a lot of audience response.
Speaker 2:You got a lot of emojis during the call.
Speaker 2:Yeah, these are some of my favorites. This is one of the applications we found, and it came from a drive originally into how can we make it easier. So, ultimately, we're a team of engineers. We're working with scientists and providing them with the engineering resources they need, and as clever as scientists are, they're not engineers. They don't necessarily know how to design things. So sometimes, you know, we literally go with that hand sketch and so on, trying to work out what something is. We thought, thought, how can we make the process quicker? How can we bypass the CAD entirely? Could we take a hand sketch and create a part? We came up with this process where you could take a scanned image, a monochrome image, and that allows you to create an STL based on the variation, based on the grayscale, from that 3D STL file. We could then 3d print the parts. So we tried that and it worked. Off a hand sketch.
Speaker 2:It looked terrible, though it really there's a reason for straight lines when it comes to science and engineering. But we thought, you know, what else can we do with this? What? What would be a demand for organic geometry, for not engineered geometry? So actually, surely there's a need for modeling of vasculature systems, of looking at anatomical systems. So we took a leaf. Originally it's nice and two-dimensional. We took an x-ray of a leaf, created a a microfluidic part based on that leaf venation and it is wonderful, it is so nice to see you. When you put liquid through it it just distributes perfectly because, of course, the leaf has had billions of years of evolution to do exactly what it needs to do. And that's great. And you know, it looks pretty and people joke we should sell them on etsy and we kind of showcase I think it may actually sell.
Speaker 1:I'll buy one of those. Yeah, it's a thought we've had.
Speaker 2:It's a thought we've had, um. So we did a few iterations of that and we just kind of we let it lie. You know it was there, we showcased it and that was fine. About a year or so later, um, we got a connection. We were somebody got in touch from a large research organization over there in the states and so we've seen your leaf. If you can make the leaf, could you make a human organ?
Speaker 2:yeah, yes and we made a model of a prostate. Well then, there's over an x-ray data of a prostate. We created um models for them. We've made kidneys, we've made livers, we've just done a um middle meningeal umous model which will be-.
Speaker 1:Artery, probably artery. Yeah, Middle meningeal artery.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's the one yeah, so that is going to go out on social media in a week or two.
Speaker 2:Nice, look forward to that so that ability to process the 2D models, and so you're going from a 2D sketch to it's effectively a two and a half day. So it's still planar, right. But the the channels are circular, so depending on the width of the line, it creates a circular channel um, and that's just allowed us to get into different markets. Since then we've got into the more three-dimensional um right, creating vasculature models from um, from 3d, from ct scans and so on. We've done some amazing things on that and it's just these parts look fantastic and you mentioned earlier how you're impressed with them. I'm blown away Every time I see them. I think it's just there's something special about being able to create these models and it's the kind of thing you can only really make with 3D printing. There are other methods of doing it, of casting, silicone and and so on, but nothing quite down to the size that we can get down to. So we're using our microfluidic knowledge to create these models. So other.
Speaker 1:So these are really small, even though the pictures are magnified, but they're like yeah well, just want to have a concept how big it is. Oh, okay, so yeah, so it's your hand size. Okay, that's a microvascular, that's a 3d, wouldn't you say that's a three-dimensional?
Speaker 2:channel that is three-dimensional yeah and it's about 200 microns at the center. Um, these are some parts. In fact, there'll be a version of that model that's going on the web shop soon. Um, so it will be publicly available for research, r&d purposes.
Speaker 1:Um okay, yeah. So my question is yes, they're, you know, great to look at, but what are the applications for creating these models? Um?
Speaker 2:so there's a few demands for them. Um, obviously drug delivery research is really important. If you're developing something, you need to know where it's going to get to I see, see. And at the moment it's done using animals. So in the drive to reduce animal testing and the regulations for reducing animal testing, the more models like this you can do.
Speaker 2:You can reduce that so you can actually analyze what's going through. So you've got that side of things. Training models for catheter insertion, things like that. Again, you can do whatever geometry you need to do. There's occasional requests for patient-specific data. We haven't really gone into that market just yet, but that's something we're kind of looking into where we can go on that side of things. But it's mainly the R&D and the training models. That's the real benefits here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes sense. I mean I would assume, in terms of drug delivery is to see how various viscosity liquid with carrying loads of ingredients going through the vascular channels, stuff like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's exactly that, and we're working with a few customers on that field now, which is it's really cool that we can make these parts. As I say, there are other companies out there providing similar models, but nobody can get this really good down to the size that we're at yeah, I haven't seen any, so I I think that's probably true.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, go ahead I was gonna say you know, it may be a case and I don't know this but it may be a case of nobody's doing it because nobody's asked for it, but nobody's asked for it because nobody can do it.
Speaker 1:So it's a bit of a chicken and egg situation, yeah that's another question I actually have is you know people who want microfluidic chips. They already know what they want. They kind of know what it is and what it does. They kind of know what it is and what it does, but is there such a market outside?
Speaker 2:of existing market that people don't know what they don't have, don't even know the unknowns. And do you see some of that out there? Absolutely. Maybe not so much in the microfluidic chip kind of market, the kind of two and a half d lab on a chip stuff. But one of the interesting markets we're getting into at the moment and have been pushing for last year or so, is valve manifolds, so much more three-dimensional, which traditionally are made either with cross drilling, blocks of acrylic or cnc machining and diffusion bonding together, building building layers up that way. And we've realized that actually with 3d printing you just make them, you can absolutely smash the lead time. But one of the really interesting processes is you can get rid of all excess material. You're not restricted to this two and a half d layout you're suddenly got. You got all three dimensions that you can utilize and, as we've been sort of showcasing what's possible, you get the light bulb moment. It happens every time and I absolutely love it when you're showing someone we can do this, we can do this, we can do this, and they realize that actually you know you're not restricted to the way that it's always been done.
Speaker 2:Yes, there are challenges in persuading people that the right materials to use it's different um, but as long as you are open to finding equivalent materials, depending on what's being needed um, it can work really well, and we are. We're in the process of really speeding the process up um, so I can't say too much yet, but we'll be launching it kind of soon. So for a diffusion bonded manifold, you're usually looking at a lead time of four to six weeks, maybe a bit longer um where you take three layers of acrylic and bond it together. Now we've done case studies where we've taken the same part and we can 3d print it as designed in about, I think, 10 or 11 hours. We then took that part, took a load of material out, took all the excess material out, which obviously reduced weight. That makes it easier to print.
Speaker 2:So by improving the manufacturability we got it down to two and a half hours um wow, or a similar kind of cost to what you'd be paying um for a quantity of a few hundred. So you're getting the same performance but you're getting it within a few days. We're about to show how we can get that down to minutes by producing multiple parts at one time. That is going to be game-changing stuff. All of a sudden we'll be. We will have the capacity to produce hundreds of components, fairly complex components, in a day. So you know, because it's, you know, ultimately works out two or three minutes per part on average to produce.
Speaker 2:So that market, that ability to get a product to market quickly, again, it's just. You know, if our customers can get their product out there sooner, they're going to make more money. As simple as that. If they need to change their mind, change the design, we can change it at a moment's notice. So you can go through multiple iterations, you can go for individual bespoke geometry and it's just. It's only possible through additive and it's only possible because we know how to, as we mentioned earlier, get the excess resin out of the channels and incorporate various other features. So it's a it's a new market that's been watching with interest for the last couple of years since we've started talking about it and I think it's about to blow up in a good way.
Speaker 1:Um yeah so I'm gonna, I'm gonna admit my inners in the, in the in things, uh, inside or outside of life science. So I would assume the application for this manifold it sounds like a fluid manipulating device that can be modularly produced, that can be used for both industrial and non and life science sectors. Is that correct?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, so yeah, it's. Ultimately it's a block of plastic with some valves attached to it, a fluid source so you can have pressurized fluid going into it. Valves turn it on and off so you can change how the fluids then behave, whether they mix or the outlets they go to, and that applies to liquid or gas. So pneumatic systems are applicable as well, and you can even go to fairly high pressures. That's one of the questions. Another question people are asking is it suitable for high-pressure applications? There's this belief that because 3D printing is built up layer by layer, that under high pressure it's going to delaminate. Now we've carried out some internal pressure testing where we are pressurizing these parts up to 250 bar.
Speaker 2:And when they're failing. They're failing exactly the way you think they're going to fail, based on a stress concentration area, and then it's cracking through as a homogenous material. It's not delaminating, it's cracking. You'd expect a solid material to do. We're about to set up a six-month cycling testing so we can get some fatigue strength data on that. But certainly going up to 100 bar is possible. None of our customers go to 100 bar. I think the most is maybe 8.
Speaker 1:We can probably guess what the applications are once you go on to a very extreme dimension.
Speaker 2:What I'm curious to see the testing house we're using when they're pressurizing it, they're putting in a steel box for safety. I would love to see a slow motion video of it exploding at 200 bar. But we're not there yet.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, good to know what you're thinking about. So you also have something called the PCB Embedded Wells, which is fascinating because it's like a kind of a bioelectronics or maybe just electronics. Can you expand on that a little bit? What does it do?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so again, this was a lot of the things we're pushing out. So anything you look at on our social media.
Speaker 1:These are all public. I'm not.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah, so everything we've put out there is is, is, it's in the public knowledge. Occasionally customers allow us to share data, but most of the time it's it's our own. So we're always keen to try ideas out. So if I hear two or three people talking about or see an application, rather than wait for a customer to come along and order something, I'll say, well, I wonder if we can make that. So I come back to the office and I say I saw this great thing at the show, can we make that? And everybody says no, oh, go on, try and we'll try.
Speaker 2:So one of the things was this whole um application of using electrochemical biosensing. So when you're within the life science, within the microphysics, you know if you are trying to detect a change of state, you wonder what you can do is electronically. So it's whether a protein binds to electrode or the change of state of the chemistry, anything like that. If you can measure it electronically. You have an electrical biosensor and we thought we were looking into how can we get the electronics into the part. So we thought the first idea that the real, cheap and easy way of doing this can we take a simple pcb and put it in the part. So in the same way we put the sacrificial material in the channel to stop the resin going in, can we just put a solid part in there and print over the top of it? And the answer is yes, and we. So we started off, you know, just putting a pcb, and I think the first demo we had was a very simple chip where we had a straight line fluid line. We had this pcb in there that was wired up to some leds, so when you ran a saline solution through, it simply completed the circuit and the leds flashed on as the liquid went through. Nice needs a fluid actuated lighting system, but it just demonstrated how the electronics were interfacing with the fluidics. And so from there we've been able to reduce. You know, put biosensors in flow cells.
Speaker 2:Uh, an interesting application we've done a few examples of is where you take a standard 96 well plate and you can then have an electronic measurement system at the bottom of each well. So we have a system that's just gone out which is a multi-channel impedance measuring system. So there's a customer approach that said they've had a 64 channel impedance measuring system, which is wonderful, but they didn't actually have a consumable to measure 64 things, which is wonderful, but they didn't actually have a consumable to measure 64 things. So we made them a well plate. We use the 96 format but obviously only 64 are being used and that's connected up to the system. So as they are modifying the contents of the wells, we are measuring the impedance live.
Speaker 2:So you get to see, measure that, that change of state, and it's just by embedding the pcb within the printing part. And again, it's that knowledge of how you get to see, measure that change of state, and it's just by embedding the PCB within the printing part. Again, it's that knowledge of how you get the print to bond top and bottom to the PCB, to locate it correctly and seal on. We've done the same kind of thing with screen printed electrodes. So if you print an electrode onto PET film, for instance, the advantage there is that gets you into the flexible wearable market. So some of the resin we're printing with are flexible. We've got flexible methacrylate. We recently started looking into flexible so silicone, so 3d printed silicone. So if you can input a flexible electrode into a silicone part, then wearable biosensors start to become feasible.
Speaker 2:Um, and that's, you know, an interesting new application. And it's just that way of just trying different ideas out different technologies and pulling it all together. Um, and that drive to to push ideas to our out there for our customers to see, and it's that great example where where people see the range of products that we can make and I said I want that and I we can make, and they'll say I want that and I want that and I want that, but I want them all in one piece. Can you do that? Yes, you know, might not be able to do it straight away, but give us a little bit of time and we'll put them all together and within a week you'll have it. And that's yes, that's, that's the service that we we like giving yeah, I mean listening to you.
Speaker 1:I feel like you're opening doors for a lot of people with creative ideas. You know things that weren't possible and suddenly open a door for example that pcb embedded wells and now there's so many things you can do just coming from that possibility that it can be achieved. I mean now you can. You can pretty much run 96 experiments and acquire data in a consistent manner and maybe even control the experiments um kind of just all day long.
Speaker 2:Yeah you know, yeah, this kind of product is available at volume. You know it does, and this was what gave me the idea that it does actually translate neatly to injection molding, so you can buy well plates and you can have well plates with electrodes in.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:If you want something custom, it's going to cost. If you're going down the injection molded route, it'll cost you tens of thousands, if not more, of dollars to actually get that product. So the fact that we can prototype it so you can try a bespoke system is really interesting. Fact that we can prototype it so you can try a bespoke system, yeah, is really interesting. We have customers who they use the well plate um interface because it's standardized. There's equipment out there that's designed to take a well plate but they may not want just to have wells. So again, by using additive we can put electrodes in, we can have channels between the wells, we can have flexible lights going on and off the wells.
Speaker 2:You can have different kind of sensors within that, so you can have a complete lab in a well that does allows you to run 12 experiments at one time or so you can use that 96 format for different applications, but you can prototype it while you're testing it and you can get a batch of 10, a batch of 100 before you want to commit to um, to injection molding. So it's, it's so. It's not something that is unique to small quantities, but it's a way of enabling that mass production technology and actually trying ideas out before committing to the high volumes and the high costs that go with it.
Speaker 1:Right Totally makes sense Now of all these cool projects we have talked so far what are some of the challenges you've faced?
Speaker 2:Any surprising requests that you're like WTF? Terms of the challenges, the big one is certainly the material um, because we're using methacrylate resins, um compared to glass or coc or also anything like that. You know, everything has its strengths and weaknesses and I I'm very open to say you know there's a lot of things we can't do. You know, we can't go really small. We can't get below 100 microns um, traditionally, most materials are terrible for auto fluorescent. You know, if and fluorescent, fluorescent imaging is a common method for analysis if you're measuring um, pcr or whatever, you need that, that fluorescent reaction, and if the material itself glows like a street light, then it's no good. There are materials that get better there. So that's that's that's being resolved and there were ways around that so we can kind of cross that bridge. Transparency, um, you know, actually optical transparency, ignoring the, the flessing outside, but if you want to see clearly what's going on, there are challenges involved with as printed parts. Now you can polish them, you can coat them and you can get higher levels of transparency on the resins. And again, the materials are getting better, the equipment's getting better. There's some great ways of post-processing now that allow you to get a much better finish. And we've gotten access and knowledge of how to do that. But equally, if you really wanted it perfect, you can put a glass window in there.
Speaker 2:Um, so if we had, this is a an interesting one we had a while ago where someone was cultured cell culturing, um, probably a cancer cell. That's the, you know, that's the kind of common thing. So culturing a cell on a microscope slide. But they needed to have eight channels for um, for liquid to feed it. But they wanted to image it top and bottom, but they needed perfect clarity. So we ended up with a system where the cell was cultured initially on the slide. We created this microfluidic manifold that we stuck to the slide just using a double-sided adhesive that had the wells, the channels going into it. But to get the visibility on the top, we embedded a cover slip within the part, much like I've talked about embedding pcbs. You embed a cover slip into a small glass cover slip into the block. There's then stuff on the slide. So you end up with the cell culture sandwiched between two pieces of glass. So you get perfect optical transparency.
Speaker 2:So we solve that problem just by, you know, with a fabrication technique? Um, it's, it is. Yeah, it's. It's a limiting factor with the materials. Sometimes we simply cannot do if, if you really need that high precision or or a particular material quality, that we can do and that's where we reach out to the network. You know, ultimately it's it's a growing market, but it's still relatively small. There were what 20 or 30, maybe a few more companies around the world producing microfluidic components, using different techniques in different materials, and, on the whole, most people are happy to collaborate. Most people realize, you know, how technology can complement each other. So we'll just, you know, use the network and go out to the right, you know the right supplier, make an introduction, make a referral, and it goes the other way as well. So as long as everybody gets along, then we can all service our customers as we need to. So that's, yes, it is a big challenge In terms of specific kind of crazy ideas. We have been asked to get involved in a vaping project.
Speaker 2:Um, ultimately it's, it's droplets yeah vaporized um, that didn't go anywhere and I wasn't too bothered about it. And my my drive as an engineer is I like being involved in the healthcare, in the life science market. That's what I want to do. I I like to know that the end product is helping people and it's hard for me to get involved in a vaping project. It's tricky because ultimately there's money there and you can't. You know, as a business owner I'm not going to turn down an opportunity to make money. We've.
Speaker 2:We had an inquiry recently for in the automotive industry, um making to produce a small quantity of caps for a porsche. So imagine, with the roll cage apparently a certain model you could take the roll cage out. That leaves a nasty hole on the top and the caps that Porsche provide fall out. So somebody had this great idea of making aftermarket caps to go to, to sort of tidy up the bodywork, and we proved that we could do it. My question is why would you take the roll cage out? That's, it's there for um again, that's. That's not materialized and it's. It's one of those interesting we are getting into a few other markets.
Speaker 2:The valve manifold is allowing us to get into industrial automation. We've got customers who are looking at robotics, so we're making components for robotics. So there are other things out there that we will talk about. We'll talk to them, we're open-minded, but ultimately we've got a range of high-precision 3D printers that I'd much rather we're making products and not the markets that we desperately want to be in, but the drive for me, as I say, is working within the healthcare sector. That's the important thing for me.
Speaker 1:I think you can, definitely. I'm very curious myself of what are the applications outside of healthcare, but currently I am seeing a lot more applications within healthcare. To begin with, yeah, yeah room to grow. So so, speaking of the room to grow, do you think this industry is consistently growing as suggested by some market research, or do you feel it's? It's? It's a more of a hockey stick growth trend, or is it more like a linear, or hopefully not plateauing?
Speaker 2:oh it's definitely not plateauing, it's definitely growing and yeah, and yeah, the market research. Every year there's the reports out for the growth of microfluidics as a sector and it's worth however many $10 billion a year, $20 billion a year, CAGR of whatever. I think during the COVID pandemic they were quoting a CAGR of 40%, because it was that.
Speaker 1:And that's lovely.
Speaker 2:It's a great one when you're talking to that's.
Speaker 1:That's how much I lost. That's how much money I lost basically um, yeah, it's, it's.
Speaker 2:It tends to be around sort of 10, 15 percent, I think, in terms of yeah I think that's the number I'm looking at too.
Speaker 1:It's a fifth double low double digit. Yeah, yeah it's.
Speaker 2:it's definitely growing, I think, from our point of view, because we have this unique approach. There's a lot of people watching and I'm waiting for it to. I think it is going to kick off. I think we've kind of we've been going for five years. We've achieved what we need to achieve and we're starting to get interest from a lot of the big players. We've got some huge names on our books. I'm astonished when I look at the customers we've got, and here we are in our little warehouse in central Newcastle supplying to these customers around the world. So things are growing and the US market is particularly important to me. Ultimately, the attitude to R&D over there involves spending more money and spending it quickly compared to the European attitude, and I just want to be on the receiving end of that. So we know we're talking to partners about setting up remote manufacturing over there, because, rather than shipping bits of plastic across the atlantic, why don't we just share data and then have somebody or assist them over there to load the data, load the material, press go yeah there's machinery being made which it speeds up the shipping times um, reduces import costs and you know we're not really affected by the tariffs as such being I was
Speaker 2:wondering it's, that's, that's not a problem for us at the moment, um, who knows how that will change, but even so, if we can bypass it, it makes sense, um, and you can just say save time, so we can be a much quicker response for our customers, so we can kind of keep that rapid development side of things. So, yeah, the market, I would say, is growing. I think by expanding our offering, by not just looking at microfluidic chips, by the anatomical models, the valve, manifolds and so on, we've found other markets, much wider markets, markets. We're expanding our own services. So in-house we're looking at thermoplastic forming, so using 3d printed molds for hot embossing and pressure forming. Um, we are looking at um rapid prototyping using injection molding, um, so we're partnering with, with a company who can offer that, so we can start to um bring in more services. So we can start to bring in more services, so we can just widen our appeal, widen our markets, whilst also still keeping it pretty niche. I mean, ultimately what we're doing is a niche in a niche, so we'll just kind of step one level back and widen things a little bit more and find a wider market. But yeah, it's picking up.
Speaker 2:We saw earlier this year the US market did definitely take a bit of a. It paused, I think, with all the the uncertainty over research grants and so on. Um, the upshot of that was the uk and european market kind of took up the slack. So that side of things, we got more inquiries, more business over here. But then since the summer the us market has definitely picked up again really has for us. So this over summer inquiries are ramping up. We've hit September and it's gone mad. It's a fantastic problem to have, but there's so much kind of coming in at the moment it's really good. So we're kind of growing to suit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I think. From the long-term perspective, I think this industry is poised to grow. Now, even though you caught yourself in a niche market, but you didn't lose sight of the forest, it seems like you are very well aware of other players. I mean, granted, it's still a small field, but you're very much aware of all the players that are around you. Have you seen anything that's super cool and new that you'd like to share with our audience?
Speaker 2:um, oh, super cool and new. I saw something today, in fact, that I would love to share, and I'm not going to um absolutely yeah, you got to keep watching following on linkedin find out, okay.
Speaker 2:Okay, some really cool stuff, more on the manifold market kind of things. Again, just by taking a different approach to the large-scale 3D printing, there's going to be some really really cool stuff coming out very soon in terms of production rates and processes. That's got me really excited. I would love to tell you and we will be launching it um, as soon as we can kick things off um other than that, see, I think it's like I mentioned the, the rapid injection molding process, which obviously that's not 3d printing. There might be ways of 3d printing tools and stuff. That's something I'm really quite keen to see. If you can get a 3d printed tool, it works for hot embossing, so it ought to work for injection molding as well, so you can get rapid, low cost um thermoplastic parts, um. So that's, there's definitely appeal there.
Speaker 2:So there's yeah, there's there's lots out there that's going on um and just seeing the way that 3d printing is evolving as a as the technology matures and the resolutions are getting better, materials are getting better ease of use. I bought my son a little bamboo filament printer for his birthday this year and he is just smashing our stuff out because it's so easy to use and the quality is just blows me away with what you can get on this basic filament printer, um, and you kind of think, well, if that's the you know, that's the home user, diy, hobbyist market, just you know what's going on at the industrial scale? Well, I know what's going on in the industrial scale and it's, it's the same rapid development, um, so it's, it's an exciting place to be yeah, I know it's good to see that, uh, both ends of the market is, uh, they are evolving.
Speaker 1:I I have a firm belief that technology should be easy to use and easier over time and not hard, and 3D printing has been very hard for me personally and many others, and that's why it didn't realize what it wanted to realize. So I'm hoping that this kind of progression can continue. Now we're approaching the end of this interview, although I honestly half of the questions I wanted to ask. We don't have time, but maybe another episode. So, since we're approaching the end, let's just uh, have some reflection about you know, your journey as a engineer and entrepreneur what, what kind of advice would you give to the newcomers to this space and maybe even students in college?
Speaker 2:yeah I would say, if you see an opportunity, jump on it, totally and utterly jumping. I've, you know, I'm 25 years of since graduating, so 25 years as an engineer, and I saw there's definitely a few situations early on my career I thought, oh, that's a good idea, but somebody else has done it. And I had this realization where the next time something comes along, grab it and go with it. And that's what enabled me to get into life science. That opened this door, that opened other doors and and then it just it's a chain reaction for where your career can go. If you you know, if you see something, totally go for it. Likewise, and you know the other end of that is, if you're going to go for it, make sure you know where you're going to a point you know it's from a setting up your own business entrepreneur.
Speaker 2:I never set out to be an entrepreneur, you know. That was not my intention at all as career guidance. It is so incredibly stressful and worrying and hard work, but the upshot is it's such good fun. You know you can totally do whatever you want to do. But you've got to know the market, you've got to know those customers then. But because the whole drive for this technology came about because I, effectively, was the customer. We needed this process. That means that I can relate to my customers, um, so, yeah, it's, it's kind of that thing of go for it but be careful it's, but it's, it's absolutely worth it. Um, and I wouldn't change it for the world. I don't think I can ever work for anyone else ever again, now that I've experienced doing it myself.
Speaker 1:This is a common comment I hear from a lot of founders they cannot be another employee ever and I can? I can understand that. Now, where do you envision rapid fluidics, let's say in three years?
Speaker 2:Three years time, I think we will have a site in the States. I think we'll have a manufacturing over there Good Awesome, I'll go visit.
Speaker 2:Absolutely yeah, whether it's more than manufacturing, if we could have obviously have sales and so on, whether we end up with the technical design team as well over there, it would be a nice place to be. That's, you know. That's definitely one thing there going on. It may be an acquisition. Um, you know, there have been conversations about that and in the back of my mind I'm thinking, yeah, I'll take the money, I'm happy it is my baby, but I'll sell it for a moment's notice, just for a good night's sleep. Um, so it might be that we become part of something larger.
Speaker 1:I think that's.
Speaker 2:I think that I think there will definitely will be some external partnership formalizing whether we are absorbed into something bigger or we've just kind of merged with other similar companies. That's the way to survive, I think, in this situation. As I say, just by broadening our services, let's bring in other people as well. But I think we'll still be going. I think we'll be larger, more established.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm here saying don't sell. There's a lot to be said for that yeah, so to calm your nerves or to encourage yourself to continue the journey. What do you entertain yourself?
Speaker 2:with books, media, any youtube channels, whatever I yeah I don't tend to focus on the business side of you know of media other than you know. You know I'm fairly prolific on using linkedin but I also I read linkedin. It's you know, it's my source of news of what's going on in the industry and lead generation. You see an interesting article, you read up who wrote it, you get in touch with them and who knows where that conversation is going to go. So I'm not a I don't listen to professional podcasts and stuff.
Speaker 1:You know I'm a keen cyclist, that's but but other than our podcast, obviously, oh yeah without a doubt.
Speaker 2:Obviously I read, listen to the lattice all the time. I do listen to a few business-related podcasts. There was a great one that sadly is no longer going, called the Northern Spin, which was a view on politics and business, predominantly in the north of England but looking at wider spread, so very much important to me. So that's not happening these days. There's a couple of Australian business podcasts I listen to Interesting Mark Boris. I find fascinating. I'd love to have a couple of Australian business podcasts I listen to Interesting Mark Boris. I find fascinating.
Speaker 1:I'd love to have a link of all these podcasts you listen to, because I've never heard of these and I don't want to be an echo chamber and just getting the same kind of news, same kind of commentary every day. I want to hear different perspectives.
Speaker 2:And then, yeah, I listen to cycling podcasts. I listen to audiobooks when I'm driving. I've rediscovered Stephen King.
Speaker 1:Nice. Is it good? The audio version is better than the written one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, as a teenager I read all the Stephen King novels and I kind of lost it for 15 years. And then I've rediscovered and I'm partway through the Dark Tower, which is just epically weird, and I'm reading on the Kindle. I'm reading um game of thrones again.
Speaker 2:um, mainly because you know where I live, I you know I live near to hajian's wall, which was the inspiration for the wall, um, so it's kind of wow, I did not know that, I did not know that I do know that game of thrones has a lot of references in history and yeah, and it's kind of yeah, it's kind of based on the war of the Roses, the idea of the House of York and the House of Lancaster and I grew up in Yorkshire, so White Rose versus Red Rose Wow, there's a lot going on kind of linked to British history. We don't quite have as much dragons, though, but that's the fun in that We've got the Welsh. They're dragons.
Speaker 2:Okay, so I wasn't going to ask you this question and this certainly is my last question is what's so special about newcastle? Um, it is a fantastic city. It's relatively remote for england. You know, it's two hours north to edinburgh. It's, you know, an hour or two south to to york. So this we're surrounded by a large amount of nothing, which means the city is quite insular, but it's it's not too big, it's it's like by a large amount of nothing, which means the city is quite insular, but it's not too big. It's like a large town in some respect, but it's got everything going on. And as for the football, you know you cannot avoid it. Yeah, where?
Speaker 1:we are Stalker. Stalker for the American listeners.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, so where I'm sitting right now, st James's Park, is out of that window, so we are right close to where Newcastle United play at home when they play the whole town's black and white.
Speaker 2:It's an amazing experience and I was never a soccer fan but my youngest son got me into it. It's just, it's special. And if you're not and I, I didn't grow up here. I've been been here for 25 years but I've didn't grow up here. But you know the geordie, geordie accent, I'll get you for starters, um, but it's, it's just a wonderful place to be. I would say majority people are wonderful here. It's great great.
Speaker 1:Well, I would say to those people who want to go on a pilgrimage for microfluidics definitely visit Paul Marshall in Newcastle, England. Definitely yeah Well it's been a pleasure, Paul. Until next time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, good to talk to you. See you again, great.
Speaker 1:Cheers only. The views expressed do not constitute medical or financial advice. The technologies and procedures discussed may not be commercially available or suitable for every case. Always consult with a licensed professional.
